粵曲粵劇趣味話題 (卷一） 日期：2015/04/26 22:55 留言者：KC 通常網上討論，好易談興正濃離了題！又來不及去談天說地版設題！不如就開個廣濶的題目！ 任大家隨意發揮吧！ （出貼日期：2012年10月21日）上面日期乃本貼修改過的日期！

Page: [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14] [15] [16] [17] [18] [19] [20] [21] [22] [23] [24] [25] [26] [27] [28] [29] [30] [31] [32] [33] [34] [35] [36] [37] [38] [39] [40] [41] [42] [43] [44] [45] [46] [47] [48] [49] [50] [51] [52] [53] [54] [55] [56] [57] [58] [59] [60] [61] [62] [63] [64] [65] [66] [67] [68] [69] [70] [71] [72] [73] [74] [75] [76] [77] [78] [79] [80] [81] [82] [83] [84] [85] [86] [87] [88] [89] [90] [91] [92] [93] [94] [95] [96] [97] [98] [99] [100] [101] [102] [103] [104] [105] [106] [107] [108] [109] [110] [111] [112] [113] [114] [115] [116] [117] [118] [119] [120] [121] [122] [123] [124] [125] [126] [127] [128] [129] [130] [131] [132] [133] [134] [135] [136] [137] [138] [139] [140] [141] [142] [143] [144] [145] [146] [147] [148] [149] [150] [151] [152] [153] [154] [155] [156] [157] [158] [159] [160] [161] [162] [163] [164] [165] [166] [167] [168] [169] [170] [171] [172] [173] [174] [175] [176] [177] [178] [179] [180] [181] [182] [183] [184] [185] [186] [187] [188] [189] [190] [191] [192] [193] [194] [195] [196] [197] [198] [199] [200] [201] [202] [203] [204] [205] [206] [207] [208] [209] [210] [211] [212] [213] [214] [215] [216] [217] [218] [219] [220] [221] [222] [223] [224] [225] [226] [227] [228] [229] [230] [231] [232] [233] [234] [235] [236] [237] [238] [239] [240] [241] [242] [243] [244] [245] [246] [247] [248] [249] [250] [251] [252] [253] [254] [255] [256] [257] [258] [259] [260] [261] [262] [263] [264] [265] [266] [267] [268] [269] [270] [271] [272] [273] [274] [275] [276] [277] [278] [279] [280] [281] [282] [283] [284] [285] [286] [287] [288] [289] [290] [291] [292] [293] [294] [295] [296] [297] [298] [299] [300] [301] [302] [303] [304] [305] [306] [307] [308] [309] [310] [311] [312] [313] [314] [315] [316] [317] [318] [319] [320] [321] [322] [323] [324] [325] [326] [327] [328] [329] [330] [331] [332] [333] [334] [335] [336] [337] [338] [339] [340] [341] [342] [343] [344] [345] [346] [347] [348] [349] [350] [351] [352] [353] [354] [355] [356] [357] [358] [359] [360] [361] [362] [363] [364] [365] [366] [367] [368] [369] [370] [371] [372] [373] [374] [375] [376] [377] [378] [379] [380] [381] [382] [383] [384] [385] [386] [387] [388] [389] [390] [391] [392] [393] [394] [395] [396] [397] [398] [399] [400] [401] [402] [403] [404] [405] [406] [407] [408] [409] [410] [411] [412] [413] [414] [415] [416] [417] [418] [419] [420] [421] [422] [423] [424] [425] [426] [427] [428] [429] [430] [431] [432] [433] [434] [435] [436] [437] [438] [439] [440] [441] [442] [443] [444] [445] [446] [447] [448] [449] [450] [451] [452] [453] [454] [455] [456] [457] [458] [459] [460] [461] [462] [463] [464] [465] [466] [467] [468] [469] [470] [471] [472] [473] [474] [475] [476] [477] [478] [479] [480] [481] [482] [483] [484] [485] [486] [487] [488] [489] [490] [491] [492] [493] [494] [495] [496] [497] [498] [499] [500] [501] [502] [503] [504] [505] [506] [507] [508] [509] [510] [511] [512] [513] [514] [515] [516] [517] [518] [519] [520] [521] [522] [523] [524] [525] [526] [527] [528] [529] [530] [531] [532] [533] [534] [535] [536] [537] [538] [539] [540] [541] [542] [543] [544] [545] [546] [547] [548] [549] [550] [551] [552] [553] [554] [555] [556] [557] [558] [559] [560] [561] [562] [563] [564] [565] [566] [567] [568] [569] [570] [571] [572] [573] [574] [575] [576] [577] [578] [579] [580] [581] [582] [583] [584] [585] [586] [587] [588] [589] [590] [591] [592] [593] [594] [595] [596] [597] [598] [599] [600] [601] [602] [603] [604] [605] [606] [607] [608] [609] [610] [611] [612] [613] [614] [615] [616] [617] [618] [619] [620] [621] [622] [623] [624] [625] [626] [627] [628] [629] [630] [631] [632] [633] [634] [635] [636] [637] [638] [639] [640] [641] [642] [643] [644] [645] [646] [647] [648] [649] [650] [651] [652] [653] [654] [655] [656] [657] [658] [659] [660] [661] [662] [663] [664] [665] [666] [667] [668] [669] [670] [671] [672] [673] [674] [675] [676] [677] [678] [679] [680] [681] [682] [683] [684] [685] [686] [687] [688] [689] [690] [691] [692] [693] [694] [695] [696] [697] [698] [699] [700] [701] [702] [703] [704] [705] [706] [707] [708] [709] [710] [711] [712] [713] [714] [715] [716] [717] [718] [719] [720] [721] [722] [723] [724] [725] [726] [727] [728] [729] [730] [731] [732] [733] [734] [735] [736] [737] [738] [739] [740] [741] [742] [743] [744] [745] [746] [747] [748] [749] [750] [751] [752] [753] [754] [755] [756] [757] [758] [759] [760] [761] [762] [763] [764] [765] [766] [767] [768] [769] [770] [771] [772] [773] [774] [775]

< 回上一頁

Re: 粵曲粵劇趣味話題 ( No.6662 ) 日期：2014/05/05 00:53 留言者：老三 再讲子喉是否比平喉高八度一论，老三是倾向否定的。 最明显的证据，是多次分别见到一些子喉，唱唱下，声线以及音色均是转了成平喉的，转头又转回子喉声，过程中并无下跌或上跃八度的啊……。这怎解释呢？总不成女平比男平是高八度吧？ Re: 粵曲粵劇趣味話題 ( No.6663 ) 日期：2014/05/05 07:25 留言者：TL #6651寸兄貼：何以上同仩之間係八度？ 因為有八個音級，上到尺兩個音級，叫二度，上到工三個音級，叫三度，類推，上到生八個音級叫八度。有關八度的知識，參見#6654kc貼。 音級與音程是兩件事，一個八度之中包括五個全音和兩個半音，所以一個八度有六個全音。 #6650路過兄貼：上尺工反六五乙，是否已比1234567高出了八度？ 答案為“否”。用五線譜來解釋較容易些，因為音符的絕對音高在五線譜上是直觀的。以C調為例，上音或1音在線譜中都在同一位置（高音譜的下加一線）。之所以在粵樂界有人提出這個問題，可能是因為粵劇中有幾種樂器（高胡、凡鈴及揚琴）的實際音高比粵樂習慣性記譜高出一個八度。這幾種樂器的上（1）音在五線譜上應標在高音譜的第三間上。比較民樂和粵曲的揚琴譜就很明顯，揚琴玩粵曲的上（1）音位其實是民樂中的生（i）。 #6656成兄貼：高八度係子喉係糊說八道。 同意。子喉不可能是平喉的高八度，正如老三兄所言，很多時子喉唱到低子會夾著一兩個平喉音，這兩個音並沒有突然跌低八度；同樣，如果平喉由上唱到生，高了一個八度，也沒有因此變成子喉。子喉其實只是改變了聲帶的振動位置從而強調了部份泛音而已。 Re: 粵曲粵劇趣味話題 ( No.6664 ) 日期：2014/05/05 07:29 留言者：TL 補充： 絕對音高用字母來表示，同一個字母表示的音高無論何時何地都是一樣的，這個字母叫音名。音階中每個音都有一個專用字母為音名。以鋼琴中間三組音為例，中央C之前的七個音（習慣上稱低音，）叫小字組：cdefgab;接著是小字一組(習慣上的中音1234567）：c1d1e1f1g1a1b1;再後就是小字二組（習慣上稱高音）：c2d2e2f2g2a2b2。 粵曲中的上音，按譜應該是敲在揚琴的c1線上，但實際演奏時是敲在c2上。所以說比樂譜高了八度，高胡、凡鈴同樣是高了八度，一個道理。 Re: 粵曲粵劇趣味話題 ( No.6665 ) 日期：2014/05/05 07:21 留言者：TL 不同樂器相比，不能一概而論。有的是音高的確在不同的八度上，有的只是音質不同。 附：音質是指不同物理材料的發音體發出的聲音特質，與音色的概念不同。比如兩把紫檀二胡的差異是音色的差異，椰胡與二胡的差異是音質的差異。 Re: 粵曲粵劇趣味話題 ( No.6666 ) 日期：2014/05/05 08:53 留言者：老三 呵呵，TL兄不愧是大师人马，三几下就把问题讲得清清楚楚。老三就更开心，一直怀疑这些前辈留传下来的观点，是有问题、有谬误的，但就让其’统治’了许多人的思想……。另外，TL兄的观点’子喉其实是改变了声带的振动位置……’，这亦间接印证了老三的观点，就是：很大部分的女性，都是应该有’子喉’的，鹅公喉的男人都能有本事唱出难分雌雄的子喉曲，证明技术才是有否子喉的关键！那些动不动就叫’没有子喉’的阿姐们去学平喉，不为其无能的教学而愧对导师之位吗？ Re: 粵曲粵劇趣味話題 ( No.6667 ) 日期：2014/05/05 10:08 留言者：KC 早晨！早晨！ 新的一天！新的希望！ 又是向300000進發的日子！ 音樂是大學問！搞清楚一些簡單的樂理，對唱曲有很大的幫助！ 俾D心機就很易搞清楚了！ 唱泥唱去，不外乎1234567七個音，向上唱多三四個已經好Q高了！向低唱多幾個又好Q低了！ 要唱得好，真係好Q難！ 試下唱準D音先啦！朋友！ Re: 粵曲粵劇趣味話題 ( No.6668 ) 日期：2014/05/05 10:21 留言者：KC 其實音樂都好Q有趣嫁！ 留意下鋼琴的白鍵同黑鍵的安排！搵倒中央C！ 你會留意到3，4之間，只得半音，7同 i(生）之間又只得半音！ 點解？ 你問我！我問邊個？ 只能話佢天生殘缺吧？ 哈哈！似乎又同乙反音有D關係噃！ 粵曲的乙反音又同龬琴的乙反音又差DD噃！ 唔知？即係未到家囉！ Re: 粵曲粵劇趣味話題 ( No.6669 ) 日期：2014/05/05 10:51 留言者：辛奇士 不关个人面子，是真理问题。小弟的认知，假声是声带边缘震动 (TL兄称之为子喉?)，可以去高几个音阶，这方法生喉常用。叫乜野唔重要，重要既系如果假声／子喉用尽而去唔到需要既音阶或者去到但难听该怎么办？据风炉引虾哥说法系改腔或改喉。曲学深奥，在未有充份论据之前请先不要抹杀前辈／导师既实践与经验累积。高子问题，自系旦喉比生喉多。子非鱼，安知鱼之苦？唱生喉既，唔好随便对旦喉下结论。 乐器系人工制造，系物理，只要材料与手工合适，同一种乐器出黎既声音差唔多。声线系父母所赐，系生理，同指纹一样每人唔同，某部份差少少效果可以差好远。 Re: 粵曲粵劇趣味話題 ( No.6670 ) 日期：2014/05/05 11:08 留言者：路過 引用TL兄說法: "#6650路過兄貼：上尺工反六五乙，是否已比1234567高出了八度？ 答案為“否”。用五線譜來解釋較容易些，因為音符的絕對音高在五線譜上是直觀的。以C調為例，上音或1音在線譜中都在同一位置（高音譜的下加一線）。之所以在粵樂界有人提出這個問題，可能是因為粵劇中有幾種樂器（高胡、凡鈴及揚琴）的實際音高比粵樂習慣性記譜高出一個八度。這幾種樂器的上（1）音在五線譜上應標在高音譜的第三間上。比較民樂和粵曲的揚琴譜就很明顯，揚琴玩粵曲的上（1）音位其實是民樂中的生（i）。" 小弟覺得唱粵曲的上尺工反六五乙，所用氣力比唱流行曲的1234567辛苦一倍以上，（但可能跟小弟少唱粵曲有關）。還有自己唱的時候覺得很辛苦，但重播出來卻好似老牛般的聲音。 關於乙反兩音的問題，小弟覺得廣東人天生就有乙反兩個音的音準，反而4和7是靠後天學習得來。 Re: 粵曲粵劇趣味話題 ( No.6671 ) 日期：2014/05/05 11:38 留言者：老三 老三都要消化消化，思考思考一下……。因为老三亦有路过兄的相同疑问。 可能找同一首曲的简谱和工尺谱对比对比，或许可解疑团也不定……。老三是’无谱’之人，要借谱一查，不明可心不休……！ Re: 粵曲粵劇趣味話題 ( No.6672 ) 日期：2014/05/05 16:07 留言者：TL 我在上貼提到絕對音高和音名，現在再加一個：唱名。音名的高度是絕對的，比如c，全世界都是一樣的。但c可以用來唱成“上”（正線），可以唱成“反”（反線），可以唱成“尺”（士工線），也可以用簡譜唱成“1”（C調），可以唱成“4”（G調），也可以唱成”2“（降B調）。這裡的“上”“六”“尺”“1”“4‘”“2”就叫唱名。路過兄感覺唱上尺工反六比12345辛苦一倍以上，只是個人感覺。實際上，什麼唱名的高度都是一樣的。 七聲音階1234567是由五聲音階12356發展出來的。五聲音階之間的音程關係是聲音的一種物理現象，不是人為定出來而是被人發現出來的。各民族發現五聲音階的過程或有小異，在中國就是通過三分損益法。簡單地說就是將一根管子截去（損）三分之一的長度，可以得出一個高五度的音，如果以整根管子吹出來的音為1，三分之二管子就可以吹出5音來。將剩下的管子再截（再損）去三分之一，可得5的五度音2，由2得6，由6得3，再由3得7，到此為止，五音俱全。這五個音就是宮商角徵羽。為了容易明白，這裡只說了“損”法，“益”法就不說了。這裡依據的是一個叫“五度相生”的發聲原理。七聲的另外兩個聲是稍後加進去的，所以名“變宮""變徵”。用三分損益法繼續下去，相當於現代音律的十二個音都出來了。 這是自然律，因為自然，符合物理規律，所以好聽。但缺點是十二個音不是等距離，一轉調就有麻煩，於是有人將十二個音的距離平均起來，就是現在的十二平均律。因為是人為的，沒有自然律好聽，但適合大型的、多轉調的樂曲演奏。 粵曲中帶乙反音的七聲很接近自然律，所以感覺上好聽一些是有科學根據的。 我說子喉是改變聲帶的振動位置從而強調了泛音效果，並不是說改變了聲帶的振動位置就是子喉。強調一下，子喉既沒有高八度，也不是泛音，更不是假聲。泛音唱法和假聲在發聲學中都有嚴格的定義。對於子喉的問題，我也是靠估者，估的依據，有機會再貼出來請教。 Re: 粵曲粵劇趣味話題 ( No.6673 ) 日期：2014/05/05 13:17 留言者：TL 路過兄說對掌握乙反兩個音的音準有天生能力，也不全是無稽之談。音階既合自然規律，人類約約莫莫的憑本能感覺也就可以將幾個音在實踐中找出來。個別精英用具體的方法和理論將之證明，得以精確地表達出來而已。 十二平均律是人為的，通過計算得來，很理論化的東西。光憑點感覺是不可能準確掌握的，所以離不開一定的訓練。

Page: [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14] [15] [16] [17] [18] [19] [20] [21] [22] [23] [24] [25] [26] [27] [28] [29] [30] [31] [32] [33] [34] [35] [36] [37] [38] [39] [40] [41] [42] [43] [44] [45] [46] [47] [48] [49] [50] [51] [52] [53] [54] [55] [56] [57] [58] [59] [60] [61] [62] [63] [64] [65] [66] [67] [68] [69] [70] [71] [72] [73] [74] [75] [76] [77] [78] [79] [80] [81] [82] [83] [84] [85] [86] [87] [88] [89] [90] [91] [92] [93] [94] [95] [96] [97] [98] [99] [100] [101] [102] [103] [104] [105] [106] [107] [108] [109] [110] [111] [112] [113] [114] [115] [116] [117] [118] [119] [120] [121] [122] [123] [124] [125] [126] [127] [128] [129] [130] [131] [132] [133] [134] [135] [136] [137] [138] [139] [140] [141] [142] [143] [144] [145] [146] [147] [148] [149] [150] [151] [152] [153] [154] [155] [156] [157] [158] [159] [160] [161] [162] [163] [164] [165] [166] [167] [168] [169] [170] [171] [172] [173] [174] [175] [176] [177] [178] [179] [180] [181] [182] [183] [184] [185] [186] [187] [188] [189] [190] [191] [192] [193] [194] [195] [196] [197] [198] [199] [200] [201] [202] [203] [204] [205] [206] [207] [208] [209] [210] [211] [212] [213] [214] [215] [216] [217] [218] [219] [220] [221] [222] [223] [224] [225] [226] [227] [228] [229] [230] [231] [232] [233] [234] [235] [236] [237] [238] [239] [240] [241] [242] [243] [244] [245] [246] [247] [248] [249] [250] [251] [252] [253] [254] [255] [256] [257] [258] [259] [260] [261] [262] [263] [264] [265] [266] [267] [268] [269] [270] [271] [272] [273] [274] [275] [276] [277] [278] [279] [280] [281] [282] [283] [284] [285] [286] [287] [288] [289] [290] [291] [292] [293] [294] [295] [296] [297] [298] [299] [300] [301] [302] [303] [304] [305] [306] [307] [308] [309] [310] [311] [312] [313] [314] [315] [316] [317] [318] [319] [320] [321] [322] [323] [324] [325] [326] [327] [328] [329] [330] [331] [332] [333] [334] [335] [336] [337] [338] [339] [340] [341] [342] [343] [344] [345] [346] [347] [348] [349] [350] [351] [352] [353] [354] [355] [356] [357] [358] [359] [360] [361] [362] [363] [364] [365] [366] [367] [368] [369] [370] [371] [372] [373] [374] [375] [376] [377] [378] [379] [380] [381] [382] [383] [384] [385] [386] [387] [388] [389] [390] [391] [392] [393] [394] [395] [396] [397] [398] [399] [400] [401] [402] [403] [404] [405] [406] [407] [408] [409] [410] [411] [412] [413] [414] [415] [416] [417] [418] [419] [420] [421] [422] [423] [424] [425] [426] [427] [428] [429] [430] [431] [432] [433] [434] [435] [436] [437] [438] [439] [440] [441] [442] [443] [444] [445] [446] [447] [448] [449] [450] [451] [452] [453] [454] [455] [456] [457] [458] [459] [460] [461] [462] [463] [464] [465] [466] [467] [468] [469] [470] [471] [472] [473] [474] [475] [476] [477] [478] [479] [480] [481] [482] [483] [484] [485] [486] [487] [488] [489] [490] [491] [492] [493] [494] [495] [496] [497] [498] [499] [500] [501] [502] [503] [504] [505] [506] [507] [508] [509] [510] [511] [512] [513] [514] [515] [516] [517] [518] [519] [520] [521] [522] [523] [524] [525] [526] [527] [528] [529] [530] [531] [532] [533] [534] [535] [536] [537] [538] [539] [540] [541] [542] [543] [544] [545] [546] [547] [548] [549] [550] [551] [552] [553] [554] [555] [556] [557] [558] [559] [560] [561] [562] [563] [564] [565] [566] [567] [568] [569] [570] [571] [572] [573] [574] [575] [576] [577] [578] [579] [580] [581] [582] [583] [584] [585] [586] [587] [588] [589] [590] [591] [592] [593] [594] [595] [596] [597] [598] [599] [600] [601] [602] [603] [604] [605] [606] [607] [608] [609] [610] [611] [612] [613] [614] [615] [616] [617] [618] [619] [620] [621] [622] [623] [624] [625] [626] [627] [628] [629] [630] [631] [632] [633] [634] [635] [636] [637] [638] [639] [640] [641] [642] [643] [644] [645] [646] [647] [648] [649] [650] [651] [652] [653] [654] [655] [656] [657] [658] [659] [660] [661] [662] [663] [664] [665] [666] [667] [668] [669] [670] [671] [672] [673] [674] [675] [676] [677] [678] [679] [680] [681] [682] [683] [684] [685] [686] [687] [688] [689] [690] [691] [692] [693] [694] [695] [696] [697] [698] [699] [700] [701] [702] [703] [704] [705] [706] [707] [708] [709] [710] [711] [712] [713] [714] [715] [716] [717] [718] [719] [720] [721] [722] [723] [724] [725] [726] [727] [728] [729] [730] [731] [732] [733] [734] [735] [736] [737] [738] [739] [740] [741] [742] [743] [744] [745] [746] [747] [748] [749] [750] [751] [752] [753] [754] [755] [756] [757] [758] [759] [760] [761] [762] [763] [764] [765] [766] [767] [768] [769] [770] [771] [772] [773] [774] [775]

< 回上一頁

- 阿立粵曲天地 -
聲明