 Re: 粵曲有沒有 KEY? ( No.49 ) |
日期：2006/06/14 00:40
留言者：小鄧
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| Re: 粵曲有沒有 KEY? ( No.50 ) |
日期：2006/06/16 12:34
留言者：大夫
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Vincent:
(1) 音階和音調是兩回事。"合士乙上尺工反六" 是音階,.................. 這點我之前已問過思菩, 但她未答。
你可能沒有看明白我所說. 現代的樂器包括揚琴, 都是可以玩出十二個調而不需重新調弦. 但前提是樂師要有一定的技術水準. 否則轉調時便要重新調弦或換樂器. 如今的粵樂界的樂師大多只能玩三四個調. 所以粵曲還未能以樂就人和以樂配曲.
(2) **如今所用的C線對平喉....................... 男女都較舒服。為何不這樣?
這個理論上並不是這麼簡單. 以樂就人是一種處理, 同樣的以人就樂也是一種取捨. 每個人的音程都可以不一樣, 如果合唱的剛剛相差一個八度, 那麼什麼調都可以合唱用. 如今的C調的形成有其歷史原因, 所以也有其道理. 並不會因為某些人的嗓子唱不出高音而應改變. 那是另一個問題.
在c調中唱不出高音或覺得勉強, 問題不在音調key上, 也可以說這是你個人的問題. 這是你個人對歌唱未入門的原因. 粵曲中容許你二個解決的辦法. 一個是從唱法上改進, 一個是從唱腔上改進.
唱法上要弄清楚本人嗓子的基礎, 再加以正確的歌唱訓練, 問題是很容易解決的. 唱腔上你為什麼要唱那些唱不出的腔調呢? 粵曲的唱腔是自由的. 羅家寶是不會去唱新馬仔腔, 因為那是自討苦吃. 高音有問題就不要去學紅線女, 低音有問題就不要去學靚次伯. 這是唱者的取捨, 不是用key的問題.
(3) 我所說"不相信前輩留下的曲目中................所有的唱曲都是C 至C+30?
我發覺很多人還是沒有弄明白用調和定音的分別. 我之前所說的都是用調的討論. 你這個問題卻是關于定音的學問, 兩者雖有關連卻不是一樣. 我提議你去找找一些舊貼看看. C乜乜的討論以前已說過了, 另外去看看"劉B"的貼吧. |
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| Re: 粵曲有沒有 KEY? ( No.51 ) |
日期：2006/06/16 20:45
留言者：思菩
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>> 回應 ( No.47 ) 留言
(1) 音階和音調是兩回事。"合士乙上尺工反六" 是音階,.................. 這點我之前已問過思菩, 但她未答。
你問過我﹖睇唔到喎﹗
>> 回應 ( No.20 ) 留言
(4) 思菩說 "件件樂器調過音", 我就感到十分奇怪, 要轉調為何要把樂器調音? 中樂樂器我不知, 但西樂如鋼琴, 小提琴要轉調, 祗升高音階便可, 何須調樂器? C 調轉到G調就是用G音做尺就何以。
我是在 refer to >> 回應 ( No.13 ) 留言﹕ 當你唱曲時﹐你可以要求樂師調音至你自己的線口！
and was wondering how 樂社能咁快可將 C 的定音轉變﹐如由 C10 轉去 C20﹐C20 轉去 D﹐等﹐而不是在說轉調。
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| Re: 粵曲有沒有 KEY? ( No.52 ) |
日期：2006/06/16 20:17
留言者：sam
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思菩說 "件件樂器調過音", 我就感到十分奇怪, 要轉調為何要把樂器調音? 中樂樂器我不知, 但西樂如鋼琴, 小提琴要轉調, 祗升高音階便可, 何須調樂器?........yes. But htis only applies to changing of one whole note or semi, half a note. If the difference is 10,(C10), or 20(C20) etc. then the only thing you can do is to tune the instrument again. Some instrument like some chun kam have no semitone, and for yeung kam you cannot retune the whole instrument in few minutes
and as have been said many itmes before (and been rebuked just as often) not many musicians can play more than basic c and g keys.........just watch what they do when they had to play f or bflat key...if they had to change to a different instrument that usually means that they cannot change the fingering on the same piece. They had different unstruments tuned to suit themselves. Then there are ones who make funny noises, or simply stop playing altogether!!!....just watch.
C 調轉到G調就是用G音做尺就何以。...i am sure it is a typo, it should mean g=1
當你唱曲時﹐你可以要求樂師調音至你自己的線口！
而不是在說轉調。.......it must mean the same thing. CHanging the frequency of 'doe' from C, to C10, C20, C#, D, Bflat....to me is the same as changing the key, or 調, or 線口
It is not practical, unless you are the big shots.
我是在 wondering how 樂社能咁快可將 C 的定音轉變﹐如由 C10 轉去 C20﹐C20 轉去 D﹔
they won;t do that!!!
在c調中唱不出高音或覺得勉強, 問題不在音調key上, 也可以說這是你個人的問題........should be the problem is purely 個人的問題. |
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| Re: 粵曲有沒有 KEY? ( No.53 ) |
日期：2006/06/17 00:29
留言者：Vincent
電郵：randomizx@yahoo.com.hk
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Sam,
I'm not sure if I'm wrong. I suppose there are different groups of people in the world, group A's voice suitable in C key, group B suitable in key E, goup C suitable in key G......
I'm only one man of one of those group only. In each group, there are many people. Therefore, I'm not suitable for Key C is not the personal problem of me.
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| Re: 粵曲有沒有 KEY? ( No.54 ) |
日期：2006/06/17 00:46
留言者：Vincent
電郵：randomizx@yahoo.com.hk
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思菩,
在 No. 20 (4) 問過你。不過最尾一句 "G調就是用G音做尺就可以" "尺"字應為"上"。 |
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| Re: 粵曲有沒有 KEY? ( No.55 ) |
日期：2006/06/17 05:03
留言者：1010
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大夫,還是你說得清楚點, 
好大夫快點開個方,等她/他們早點解除困感
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| Re: 粵曲有沒有 KEY? ( No.56 ) |
日期：2006/06/17 19:53
留言者：思菩
網頁：http://www.perreng.com
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Vincent:
恕我直言﹐我認為你還未搞清定音(線口)是什麼﹗想想﹐點解 C 弦的音是咁的﹖就是因為有國際單位指定 C 就要用某個音作準﹐那就是定音。可是粵曲卻有變化﹐C 弦的定音可以教去正常的國際 C 弦定音﹐又可以教去 C10﹐C20﹐C30﹐什至 D ﹐即全盤音樂都被調高了音。 這定音是與正線/反線/尺五線等等的不同大調/小調 (major/minor) 無關的﹔ Say 你定了 C 弦個音是用 D音﹐樂師玩正線時也是一樣用 C 弦為[上 - Do]﹐只是現在 C 弦的音階是高了音。
你一直說你不適合唱 certain key (大調)﹐其實你是在說你不適合唱某個線口。如果你認為一般的 C20 線口對你是太高的﹐又如果某間樂社願意為你調過所有的樂器﹐say 用 B 作定音 (降低了一度)﹐你可能唱得好自然/舒服﹐可是你要找到一個可以唱 B 線口的子喉 partner 便難了﹗要唱粵曲﹐no﹐要唱任何種類的歌﹐除非有人為你度身譜歌﹐否則的話﹐你只可以揀適合你聲線的歌﹐或用時間及訓練來衝破去不到高音的局限。唱到高/低音是可以訓練出來的﹐況宜你是初學者﹐聲帶還未開盡。我個人認為練到唱高音比練到唱低音容易﹐可能這是一般女性聲帶的結構形成的局限吧﹗
This is my best explanation, 自問是班門弄斧﹐如果我的理解是不正確或寫得模糊不清﹐萬望高人指正﹗ |
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| Re: 粵曲有沒有 KEY? ( No.57 ) |
日期：2006/06/17 16:58
留言者：raymond
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玩十二種不同調？講就得！
呢 d 係無實際經驗嘅講法！
最起碼秦琴唔得喇！
吹簫唔通按住半個窿咩？
高胡手指都無位走！
中西樂器構造唔同，不能相提並論。
玩粵曲，好叻嘅師父都係玩得果幾個調，
邊位仁兄講嘅，就叫佢玩比我睇吓啦！   |
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| Re: 粵曲有沒有 KEY? ( No.58 ) |
日期：2006/06/17 23:22
留言者：sam
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思菩
can't put it better
vincent
You said
"I'm not sure if I'm wrong. I suppose there are different groups of people in the world, group A's voice suitable in C key, group B suitable in key E, goup C suitable in key G......
I'm only one man of one of those group only. In each group, there are many people. Therefore, I'm not suitable for Key C is not the personal problem of me".............but it is the problem of that group of people. Therefore to each individual it is the personal problem of that individual......it is your personal problem.
Put it another way, seriously, voval range varies with people. let us not talk in terms of keys. Just say some people can sing a few notes higher than others. That explains why some can sing one particuler song and some cannot. it is that simple. Don't make too much out of it. You did admit that you are a beginner in co. you seem to know some music theory beforehand. please take time to understand the nature and the 'pecularities' of co. i am sure you will get all the answers you want.
Also try to put in another way of what I think is your query.
Let us not talk about tuning the instruments in C, C10 C20....etc. Just say the instruments are meant to be tuned to C. But somehow by mistake they were all a bit out of tune. Then the singers have to sing to that pitch.
This is the difference between the key of a song 定音and the tuning of instruments教音. In CHinese I think is what 思菩said............未搞清定音(線口)是什麼etc. (if not, sorry la, 思菩)
Please don't get egged on by the few people who seems to enjoy watching a fight. |
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| Re: 粵曲有沒有 KEY? ( No.59 ) |
日期：2006/06/18 00:47
留言者：大夫
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Sam:
"在c調中唱不出高音或覺得勉強,........should be the problem is purely 個人的問題."
I don't agree with this statement. I think there is missing what is considered do able vs. sounded acceptable. There are people who have a voice range which sounded poor in c when tried to go to the high pitches. By yelling with your eyeballs white makes the proper sound but can not be considered singing. A good high c is what all opera tenors aim for and not many can reach.
Vicent:
You may be confusing the range of one persons voice vs what key one can sing. The range is what one can sing but within that range, what key is comfortable depends on the melody of the song. Thus, everyone can sing all keys but not all songs in one key.
Sorry. No Chinese input tools today. So I will make this short.
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| Re: 粵曲有沒有 KEY? ( No.60 ) |
日期：2006/06/18 01:14
留言者：小鄧
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Vincent，
看過這麼多位先進所給的意見後，相信你已經明白有key定無key了吧!顯淺的說，key有無得轉？在樂理上係絕對有的，但係又要睇實際環境能否容許轉key，不同樂器有不同特質及限制，未必能同步，樂師的能力問題，同學們大班學曲，相就邊個呢!
所有這些問題都歸納為資源問題，資源足夠，問題可以相相就就地解決，甚至樂器的特質問題(改樂器或取捨樂器)，甚至改曲都得，平子唔夾就改拍檔，還有.......
不過，若果首曲選成：當中高的很高，低的很低，而你又唱唔到高及低，咁就真係唔好唱佢囉。但這些問題都應該由你老師替你解決的，不然，咪又係資源問題。
Vincent，若果你想學到多d野，學大班係所學有限的，個別教授就完全唔同喇。 |
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粵曲有沒有 KEY?