 Re: 粵曲音律 ( No.3 ) |
日期：2007/05/11 16:56
留言者：sam
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mr. wong o d
normally i do not respond to a potentially negative discussion (negative as in hostile)
I was not trying to degrade you or such. I like to see people sing and sing well. Sing with good knowledge of what they are singing. That require at least a basic understanding of what music theories is. You are doing exactly that. You are asking basic music theory questions.
However the way you put your question, especially no 2, indicates to me, and i am sure to many others that you have not been correctly guided in your singing career. It is almost an impossible task to give you the correct answers on a platform like this. If anything it may take you further into this confusing journey. My apoology for my humble but inept suggestion.
I am not good enough to help you. I am equally and eagerly waiting to learn from nice people too. |
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| Re: 粵曲音律 ( No.4 ) |
日期：2007/05/11 18:15
留言者：O.D.Wong
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Sorry Sam,
Please ccept my apology for not realizing this box is specialised for singers.
I might have approached to a different field. I am doing research in ethnomusicology. I am, therefore, more interested on the world music theory side. |
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| Re: 粵曲音律 ( No.5 ) |
日期：2007/05/11 23:40
留言者：大夫
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1. I don't believe Dr. Yee would make such stupid mistakes, so I can only think that you mis-quoted what he said.
2. No.
3. 乙反的音 is 7, 4.
4. No such thing.
5. There are no official translations like a word from a dictionary. Once you understand those terms, I am sure you can come up with your translation. |
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| Re: 粵曲音律 ( No.6 ) |
日期：2007/05/13 18:08
留言者：mulan
電郵：mulan.chan@gmail.com
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Just want to say something here. P.D. Wong belongs to the category that Chinese is not their primary spoken and written language. Hence, like, Wong, I also faced the difficult task of trying to translate the jargon in CO into English. As 大夫 said "Once you understand those terms, I am sure you can come up with your translation"
I would like to share my experience with Wong, and others. I started with nil knowledge in CO, but with deligence by looking up into various websites informed by the members, I must say I have improved tremendously (in theory, at least). 粵 曲 不 離 口's 王 粵 生 and 葉 紹 德 are very good programme to listen to. You could get the finer points from them.
By the way, Wong, you must be young as you sounded just like my sons, impatient and impetus. Oops! sorry if I have offended you. What a big word, "ethnomusicology" 
Sam, you just can't keep quiet, can you?  |
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| Re: 粵曲音律 ( No.7 ) |
日期：2007/05/13 21:50
留言者：sam
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just trying to help |
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| Re: 粵曲音律 ( No.8 ) |
日期：2007/05/14 13:28
留言者：passerby
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...in the wrong way, as usual!  |
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| Re: 粵曲音律 ( No.9 ) |
日期：2007/05/14 13:58
留言者：黄安道
電郵：st.andy6@ntlworld.com
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Dear Sam and Mulan,
After I read the responses from Sam and 大夫, I wrote to Professor Yu and repeat my questions. He kindly answer them one by one patiently and I am grateful to him not only for he gave me such precious information so swiftly but I appreciate also your responses which stimulates me to look for more solid answers.
I have no hard feelings for people giving me opposite opnions. It is a learning process that one has to make discussions with others from all walks of life, but misunderstandings can easily be avoided if harsh words suggesting you feel sad for an idiot to ask silly questions before learning something basic.
I repeat the exchange of messages between Prof. Yu and myself hereunder, and hope it can be useful to you all.
by the way, Mulan, if your are a lady as the name suggests, I am afraid you are about the age of my niece. Ha ha.
Dear Andrew,
Thanks for your message and usingg my books. Please see my responses under
your questions.
Best,
Yu Siu Wah
Music Department
CUHK
-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Wong [mailto:st.andy6@ntlworld.com]
Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2007 2:50 PM
To: Yu Siu Wah (MUS)
Subject: Please advise
13/05/07
Dear Professor Yu,
I am a musicology student in England. Being a Cantonese myself I am ashamed
that I know nothing about Cantonese music. Besides listening some Cantonese
operatic songs and folk songs, I read some books about Chinese music as
well. I am glad that a friend of mine posted me a couple of your books "Such
are the Fading Sounds" and "Out of Chaos and Coincidence: Hong Kong Music
Culture", both of which are extremely informative and helpful to me.
However, I have a few questions which I should not ask because they are so
basic that idiots should have understood as a beginner. Unfortunately there
is no one here I can turn for help and I wish these points can be clarified
before I can go one step further.
My questions are:
1) The notes of Gongshang notation, the notes are do,re mi fa# so la si do
(one octave higher), i which the fa# is a semi tone higher than the Western
scale. It appears to me that contemporary musicians use the fa without the
sharp these days and they told me I am silly if I put a sharp in fa. Please
advise whether the Gongshang scale is archaic and not used in recent
days?
Well, it is true that gongshang notation is archaic and no longer used these
days. However, depending on the kind of "Chinese music" one is playing, in
the gongshang scale, or the so-called classical yayue scale, the fa# is
still common in quite a lot of "traditional" or pieces believed to be of
historical value. As far as I am concerned, I still encounter quite
frequently the fa# in the context of traditional Chinese instrumental and
vocal music.
2) "The Jing Sin and Yuet Fan are played according to the seven notes. One
difference between Jing Sin and Yuet Fan is that the music in Jing Sin
applies more on the notes so, la do re mi whereas the music in Yuet Fan
applies more on the notes si and fa which influences the tunes to sound more
melancholic and rarely use the notes " Is this statement correct?
Is something missing at the end of your quote? It is basically correct. My
experience in playing and listening to music in Yuet Fan Sin is: the notes
si and fa are variable according to the melodic contour and the song text.
In particular both in singing and playing music in Yuet fan Sin, one tends
to use a lot of slides or portamento before and after the two notes. So,
one should not isolate the two notes in terms of pitch. They are rather
parts of a continum of pitches.
3) The notes Fa# and Si flat (i.e. La#) are never used in Cantonese music?
Not true. A bit difficult to explain here. In fact, they are the two notes
Yuet and Fan, but not exactly identical to Fa# and Si flat. To put a long
story short, the two notes are always in perfect fifth, no matter it is a
Fa+ or Soh-. It also depends on the finger position of the bowed lute erhu
or the frettings of the plucked lutes qinqin. In fact, these two notes are
characteristic of Cantonese music.
4) I know it is inappropriate to translate something in Chinese which is
non-existent in Western music, but to the nearest idea, are there some ways
which can explain the terms "板腔", "追腔" and "過门" in English?
For "板腔" and "追腔", please refer to writings by Bell Yung. I am not too
comfortable with them.
My translation for "追腔" is partial imitation of the vocal phrase.
Just and very crude translation: 過门 is transition or interlude. I will
give up for "板腔" .
I know you are extremely busy and too high in position to explain such basic
knowledge to an idiot, but I would deeply be thankful to you if you kindly
help. Thank you very much in anticipation.
Andy Ong.
Andy
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| Re: 粵曲音律 ( No.10 ) |
日期：2007/05/15 20:13
留言者：sam
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i can tell that your musical knowledge is absolutely beyond me. My apology for my laughable attempt to partake in this discussion. I am the one who should know that i am in a different league. |
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| Re: 粵曲音律 ( No.11 ) |
日期：2007/05/15 21:52
留言者：大夫
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sam:
I am not sure you are in a different league. You are actually correct.
Mistakes make by a student or a professor are still mistakes. Lack of proper understanding is still a reflection of poor understanding. I only feel sorry for Dr. Yu. I heard that he is a very nice person. |
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| Re: 粵曲音律 ( No.12 ) |
日期：2007/05/16 06:20
留言者：黃安道
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中国音樂自古以來有所謂律呂譜,即用十二个半音階組成的此外有所謂宮商譜是由宮商角徵羽(即do re mi so la五音外再加两个音名為变徵及变宮組成.此數音即是do,re,mi fa#, so la si,再加一个高Do名為清宮.
粵樂是從北方傳入的,所以古來亦用該八个音. 但自二十世紀給西方文化影响中樂方面亦由此有了变化例如樂譜之五線譜,selfege (do,re, mi...)十二平均律,甚至舞台形式樂器等均漸变化. 音階扒‥採用亦變了do re mi fa son la si do.
唱粵曲及玩粵樂的人十居其九都以為中樂沒有f#這回事了.
其实我們同意現代唱粵曲的人都用fa音而不用f#.不過有些遵古的粵樂尤其有些樂器仍有用f#這个音. 余教授說他聽過這種曲. 如果有人反對他的話,這人一定也在聽過後可以提出理由反對余教授的說法.倘這人未曾聽過這種音樂調子,他只可以說未聞其詳,卻不能抹殺別人的理論,不能一概當別人無知者也.
Sam 哥不用謙虛,因為你的見觧是從你唱粵曲的深得角度看事物為跟據.我自己夲身是个粵曲门外漢,所以看法不同耳
多謝Sam哥,大夫及其他各位指教
安道上 |
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| Re: 粵曲音律 ( No.13 ) |
日期：2007/05/16 09:22
留言者：Andrew
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Dear Andy,
Bravo! These bunch of clowns make you a crown anyway.
Go go with your research!
Another Andy here. |
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| Re: 粵曲音律 ( No.14 ) |
日期：2007/05/17 06:41
留言者：大夫
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There are just too many mistakes but I will just point out one.
There are three notes that have different frequencies:
f, f#, and f+.
f# is not f+.
In western scales, e to f is a semitone and e to f# is a full tone.
In Chinese music, one of the modes have a scale which is e to f+ and is not a full tone interval. All three notes f, f# and f+ exist in Chinese music.
However, I am sure those who think they are right and knows a lot will continue to go their marry way. |
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粵曲音律