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粵曲有沒有 KEY?
日期:2006/06/04 00:09
留言者:Vincent

我剛學粵曲, 發覺不能跟音樂的聲調(KEY), 唱高8度太高, 低8度太低沉, 全不是味道。我問老師, 他說我一定要練唱到這麼高去就那曲。我有個疑問: 粵曲有沒有不同KEY? 是否所支曲都是用同一個 KEY, 即是說: 所有合音都是一樣高低? 我知道有正線和反線, 反線的上音等於正線合音。那麼, 如果正線是 C 調, 反線便是 G 調, 即是說粵曲祗有這兩個調, 對嗎? 還望前輩指教。

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Re: 粵曲有沒有 KEY? ( No.97 )
日期:2006/06/30 02:22
留言者:思菩
網頁:http://www.perreng.com

Vincent: 內咎你個頭﹐ 你得閒過[說地]玩啦﹗ (大笑)

Rosa: 你都係呀﹐ 得閒去[聊天室]啦﹗ Don't feel left out, 佢地最近講的話我都係睇唔明呀﹗ (沉思)

Re: 粵曲有沒有 KEY? ( No.98 )
日期:2006/06/30 03:00
留言者:freeman
電郵:freeman3003@sina.com

各位學長:請問管樂樂器是如何地從key c 準確調至c20/c30使之與弦樂同步相和呢?

Re: 粵曲有沒有 KEY? ( No.99 )
日期:2006/06/30 17:24
留言者:sam

old style one piece dizi and xiao have no adjusting segments and therefore cannot be tuned.

the recent design (still very primitive and poor quality compared to the cheapest of western flutes)have 2 or 3 segments. By pulling them apart the pitch or key can be reduced. Literally all the flutes you can buy over the counter do not reach even the key that it was made to . So push all segments tightly together. If it doesl not clearly reach say C or G, don't buy it, even if discounted. People said that the good ones are already kept aside by the store owners for friends or professionals or known customers.

souna is tuned by adjusting the depth you insert the mouth piece. Also 'hau koon'

The technique you use, e.g. the lip formation also have a significant effect on the pitch and quality of sound produced. Not that easy to be good ah.

If you found a dizi or xiao that plays in tune, take care of it.

There is also the problem of some of the individual notes do not play true. I believe that most good players know how to make 'hands' 'feet' on their own instruments.

Re: 粵曲有沒有 KEY? ( No.100 )
日期:2006/06/30 18:55
留言者:freeman

Sam: Thanks a lot for your " to the point" explanations. They're so clear;precise and professional. Thanks again! Sometimes, I wonder if the musician can really tune their dizi or xiao into c20 or c30 as required. If not, how can they maintain harmony in music if string instruments are tuned in c# while wind instruments can only be tuned at c20 at the best. Worst still, as you explained before, different conditions of the wind instruments shall achieve different keys when adjusted. In view of such, isn't it reasonable enough to keep every music instruments at several generally acceptable standards: Bb or C or C# or D and so on but not anything in between such as c20 or c30. If c20/c30 is set mainly for the convinience of the singers, I wonder if there is a real major different in between c20 and c30. Do singers really know they're singing at c30 instead of c20 if they're not told beforehand?

Re: 粵曲有沒有 KEY? ( No.101 )
日期:2006/06/30 20:48
留言者:sam

Oh my dear Freeman.......you want to start world war for the um...teenth time here yet once again???

(微笑)

what you asked about had been discussed here numerous times already. You may look back if they are still posted here. I have a checkered history so i do not mind being shot at again. I appreciate your sincerity. My opinion is based purely on limited and non-taught experience.

The problem of off tuning is simple. It hsould not happen. If you ever see an orchestra starting a performance the musicians tune their instruments by themselves and then the condutor come along and match each other. This is a very serious moment. The same for Western and CHinese orchestra.

For Chinese opera, for some reason the band leader (head frame (大笑) (大笑) (大笑)) often tune every instruemnt him or herself. The reason given to me was...others do not know how to tune, head frame is small minded....that is the tradition.....etc etc. None of these reasons I accept. I just accept the practice. I know that in my club the pipa player of 25 years experience leave the tuning of the pipa to the HF. The guzheng teacher of 20 years also do the same. At least the HF in my club know what he is doing (I guarantee). I also been with othe clubs where no tuning is involved at any stage and no instrument match each other..no exageration. They all enjoy themselves week in week out. Of course the singers match the musicians standard. I am not looking down on others. Just stating the facts.

back to earth...dizi and yeung kam and erhu etc also get out of tune easily. This requires retuning regularly. You can see that to play good music is not easy.

As to the forever being asked question of what key to tune the songs to please go back to the very beginning of this topic and i think you may want to remove your message!!!
You said "isn't it reasonable enough to keep every music instruments at several generally acceptable standards: Bb or C or C# or D and so on but not anything in between such as c20 or c30" Well, i am one of those who agree with you.

You question of " I wonder if there is a real major different in between c20 and c30. Do singers really know they're singing at c30 instead of c20 if they're not told beforehand?".......my answer is no, no no (see, you get me into trouble again). Between C/C20, no. C/D yes.

i have to rest now, ready to receive what i deserve...
(大哭) (大哭) (大哭) (大哭)

Re: 粵曲有沒有 KEY? ( No.102 )
日期:2006/07/01 05:02
留言者:freeman

Sam 兄:對閣下不厭其煩的講解,非常感激,再三向Sam兄謝過!
個人對"卡啦"線口的看法是:如果整隊音樂所有管絃樂器能同步地調整至某一特定的聲調如c20/c30的條件下,我仍然是接受c20/c30的。反之,我不可接受。情況如同汽車般,我們可按各人所喜好,把引擎從200匹調至300匹(當然是合法情況下)。倘若只顧提升馬力,沒有把相關的部件如排氣喉、制動器、輪胎等等同步相應地提升,落場砌車,只會炒埋一碟!說回音樂,同理,不能憑一己之便,犧牲整隊的協和合拍。要不,便如Sam兄所言,樂師們必須好好的挑選合c20/c30調的樂器拍和,相信唱的、拍和的都玩得開心點。
對Sam兄的理念我深表贊同。對Sam因堅持理念而受到誹議我深表同情。倘若Sam兄再為此而要挨鎗受靶,我願先替你埃上三鎗!

Re: 粵曲有沒有 KEY? ( No.103 )
日期:2006/07/01 10:02
留言者:sam

(微笑)

Re: 粵曲有沒有 KEY? ( No.104 )
日期:2006/07/05 01:47
留言者:大夫

Sam:
fyi. The professional flutes used in HK for Cxx are specially make. However, that does not mean they are consistent in pitch. The real funny thing is that people (including the musicians) who say Cxx don't have the same understand what that pitch is.

Re: 粵曲有沒有 KEY? ( No.105 )
日期:2006/07/05 17:30
留言者:sam

understand and agree

I would give an arm for a dizi or xiao that is accurate..........not really, that only leaves me with 5 figners. But you know what i mean.

Re: 粵曲有沒有 KEY? ( No.106 )
日期:2006/07/21 08:00
留言者:Vincent
電郵:randomizx@gmail.com

阿PAUL,

最近唱些什麼曲?有沒有高不成低不就的問題。我就一直存在。好像我最近想錄隻琵琶行, 本來聽新馬仔原唱的版本跟音樂, 那個聲調沒有問題, 可是由於新馬那個舊版沒有純音槳, 想用彭熾權的版本, 就是太高, 唱低八度就太低。真不明白為何現在新出的或翻唱的全部是這個線口。另外你說唱羅家寶的, 但我發覺他的也一樣。而且你有沒有到過曲社唱, 據說全港全深圳的音樂都是同一線口, 所以無論你要唱那一支曲, 音樂都是一樣高。你怎解決問題?

Re: 粵曲有沒有 KEY? ( No.107 )
日期:2006/07/21 10:10
留言者:Ah Paul

解決問題: 唱K. 我不是住在香港的.

新馬仔原唱的版本: 可能是D調收音,你低八度唱,故不覺困難. 未知是何曲?

新試唱: 梁天雁 - 玉梨魂, 梁玉嶸 - 張文貴踐約臨安

Re: 粵曲有沒有 KEY? ( No.108 )
日期:2006/07/22 01:20
留言者:Vincent
電郵:randomizx@gmail.com

阿paul,

對, 新馬是D 調, 低8度唱剛好。此曲是他和鄭幗寶唱的琵琶行。其實新馬的曲大部份我都可跟原唱, 可能就是這個原因。

唱K, 對, 因為可以升降調?

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