 Re: 正 反 線 ( No.4 ) |
日期：2005/02/16 08:54
留言者：李維
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Well, I started ny music education since I was 13. I actually first learned to read 五線譜 playing fife in a school band. Then I played flute and sax and other musical instruments thru out my high school and college years, wheather in band, chamber and full orchestras. I was once considered music as my major in college.
It was not till much later that I got into 粵曲。 With a full musical background it just came very easy to me.
So, yes, finding a good teacher that can teach music as well as 粵曲 is very important if you are serious about it. Like Sam said, there are many 粵曲 teachers but not many also know music so do some research before you spend the money. But unlike Sam's thinking, I don't think going to a western music is a good idea because there are too many things in western music in which you don't need in 粵曲 and you'll be wasting time in it.  |
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| Re: 正 反 線 ( No.5 ) |
日期：2005/02/16 09:42
留言者：sam
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It was not till much later that I got into 粵曲。 With a full musical background it just came very easy to me.
....what more can i say
I also agree that ......too many things in western music in which you don't need in 粵曲 and you'll be wasting time in it.
However i have not yet met any opera person who sing and learn opera in the "traditional way" really understand what music is. Anything beyond 正 反 線 is a monster to them. I am not sayign they should do a music degree or diploma. When i say school i mean to learn from a western type of teacher. Not just Tom from one's local club.
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| Re: 正 反 線 ( No.6 ) |
日期：2005/02/16 10:12
留言者：lu
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Hi guys
I would like to participate in this discussion from the
amateur perspective. As an amateur singer, I find
that I can still enjoy the opera to the fullness
whether I understand the jargons or not in the
manuscript . I would leave the musical jargons to the musicians, whose role is to "park wall" accompany the singers - to keep them in tune and in pace. I believe
that 正 線, 反 線 etc are written instructions for the
musicians by the composers to assist the singers to
sing a song according to the composers intention.
It is the obligation of the musicians
(either professional or amateurs) to know exactly
what the jargons mean and carry out these
instructions accurately.
lu |
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| Re: 正 反 線 ( No.7 ) |
日期：2005/02/16 11:40
留言者：edward
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thanks sam and lee wai, your comments were noted.
in western music, major(( 大 調) expresses happy and bright while minor(小調 ) expresses sad feelings and atmosphere. that is why I pressume 反線 expresses sad. I learn chinese opera songs just for short time, my teacher just teach how to sing not much theory. |
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| Re: 正 反 線 ( No.8 ) |
日期：2005/02/16 15:31
留言者：sam
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edward, what you know seems to be a bit of this and a bit of that. I am not sure if you can put these fact in the big picture of music understanding. All becasue......my teacher just teach how to sing not much theory explained. I suggest you go and find some way to learn music systematically
lu..I enjoy reading your views. Yes. i believe all amateur singers and musicians enjoy their opera to the full, whatever the end result is. Happy singing. |
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| Re: 正 反 線 ( No.9 ) |
日期：2005/02/16 19:42
留言者：kentSifu
電郵：kentSifu@msn.com
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Edward,
Whether a piece of music, especially opera music, is sad or happy depends less on the scale, but more on the combinations of notes used, the timbre, emotion and feeling. It actually depends more on the words, and the meaning of the words. That is why I prefer to just see the words in my score, not notes, be it clef style, 123, or 工尺. In fact, if you take a look at the scores used in an opera, they are just words, with no music, and not even 叮板. Clef notations are good for the musician, since it is relatively easy to scan the music. Once a note is determined, the rest become the steps of a ladder, just going up and down. The notes can be read from a far distance away, whether I have presbyopia or not. The clef notation relies on absolute pitches, and most pianos, strings are best learnt that way. Thus when I play piano, guitar, etc, I prefer to read clef. 123 notation is better for the woodwind players, since 123 is a trans-positional notation, and woodwinds are trans-positional instruments, and most woodwinds are learnt that way. Singing and acting are different. Your instrument is your voice box. Your movements and steps are based on feeling, since you are acting. You want to be able to tell the feeling and emotion from the words. I do not want any scores to be in the way and dictate how I interpret the verse. I prefer to use my own score styles (我自用的貓譜), with no notation, just words, big enough that with poor eyesight like mine, I can still depict the words from a distance. Simple enough that I have time to think about how I should interpret it right at the moment. The only thing I need is the tag (曲牌). If it is 中板, then I prefer to see the words blown up, with just 叮板 clearly marked. Sometimes, whether it is 上句 or 下句 helps, so to confirm that the 頭架 is honest.
(To be continued) |
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| Re: 正 反 線 ( No.10 ) |
日期：2005/02/18 19:06
留言者：kentSifu
電郵：kentSifu@msn.com
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In general, in western music, music written in major keys tend to be brighter, and ones written in minor keys tend to be softer and sad. But there are also exceptions. In Cantonese opera music, major and minor keys are not used. Instead, Chinese versions of the pentatonic and hepta-tonic scales are used. The notes in the pentatonic scale correspond more to the Dominant(V), Sixth(VI), Tonic(I), Submedian(II), and the Median(III). They are more often used in 梆子. The notes in the hepta-tonic scale correspond more to two more notes added to the pentatonic scale, namely the fan(反) and yu(乙). But these notes are not exactly the subdominant(IV) nor the Seventh(VI). They are both midway between the IIIrd and the Vth, and the Vth and the Root, correspondingly. This hepta-tonic scale is more often used in 二王and other newer forms derived after the opera styles have been introduced into Guangdong. You will know what I mean if you have background in western music, in particular how the different scales was formed. Thus, the scales used are Chinese origin, and do not match any of the western scales, whether major or the different forms of minor. Thus, if one sings a piece of arias borrowed from the Western world, with added verses in Cantonese, and the singer sings it using exactly the original notes, the effect will sound further away from Cantonese Opera (冇粵曲味).
(To be continued) |
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| Re: 正 反 線 ( No.11 ) |
日期：2005/02/16 16:51
留言者：kentSifu
電郵：kentSifu@msn.com
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Your questions, especially the way they are posted, made them very difficult to answer. I agree with Sam and Henry that you need to find a young teacher that is versatile in both western and oriental music, so to answer and enlighten your doubts. More yet, you need someone that plays oriental instruments and also sings Cantonese Operas. That is going to be difficult. Try to stay away from teachers that cannot sing, since they may not know what they are talking about.
To answer some of the questions you have: 正綫is played using C as root. 反綫is played using G as root. 士工綫is played using Bb as root, 乙反綫 is also played using C as root, and is not a different scale, but more a different mode, if your western music background have taken you into the study of harmony. While 尺五綫, something you have not asked yet, is using F as root.
While 合尺綫口(指法) refers to a fingering style, just like 上六指法, 士工指法 and 尺五指法, they all are fingering styles. In Gaohu, since the open strings are tuned to G4 and D5, playing the 合尺指法will result in C=1, while the上六指法will result in setting G=1, the士工指法 will result in setting Bb=1, and the尺五指法will result in setting F=1. If you use the erhu, with open strings tuned to D4 and A5, then 合尺指法 will yield G=1, while the other styles will yield D=1, F=1, and C=1. If you understand western music, you should understand what I am talking about.
正綫and 反綫are funny notations. Traditionally in opera, 正綫refers to whatever resulting key played in the lead instrument using 合尺指法, and 反綫 refers to whatever resulting key played in the lead instrument using上六指法. In Beijing (京劇) and Shanghai Yu (上海越劇) Operas, since the lead instruments have open strings in D and A, 正綫usually results in G=1, as seen in 京劇正二王, while 反綫 will result in D=1, as in 京劇反二王. In Cantonese Opera, 正綫 results in C=1 since the open strings of the Gaohu are G and D, as in 正綫二王. Similarly, 反綫 results in G=1, as in 反綫二王.
Whether a piece of score is high or low depends not on the keys used, but rather on the absolute pitch of the overall notes used, what we call the overall spectrum. For example, all keys can be played on the gaohu; whether the piece of music is high or low comparing with another one depends more on how often the fingers move to the 2nd or 3rd playing positions. If you notice that the musicians’ fingers are always playing around the 1st position, then they are just the normal range of notes being used, independent of which key or fingering styles are used. We call it the alto range. However, if the piece always requires that the musicians’ finger movement down to the 2nd and 3rd position, then the piece have more often stayed in the higher registers. The piece of music is higher, closer to the soprano range. Anything closer to the 1st position of the erhu is lower, and we call it the tenor range, which also includes notes lower than the erhu.
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| Re: 正 反 線 ( No.12 ) |
日期：2005/02/16 18:11
留言者：edward
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thanks kentsifu, your long message is leading me to a right way like a torch. I will read many times and digest it before asking more questions. |
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| Re: 正 反 線 ( No.13 ) |
日期：2005/02/17 09:47
留言者：lu
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Kentsifu
Just a word to say your excellent comments about
the musical jargons definietly open my eyes about
Cantonese opera. Particularly your explanation
(Response No 10 of this topic)
regarding the 粵曲味 is thus far the most justified and
scientific opinion that I have read in this web.
Good on ya! Cheers lu |
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| Re: 正 反 線 ( No.14 ) |
日期：2005/02/18 14:33
留言者：edward
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re: KentSifu, your No. 10 message.
Accorindg to my son who is a professional musician, your description about the technical names in a pentatonic scale should be Dominant (V),
submediant (Vl), Tonic (I) ,Supertonic (II) 上主 音, mediant (III)中音 while (IV)4th is subdominant and 7th is leading note. The usage of Root, sixth etc are only in harmony (和 聲 學 ). |
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| Re: 底板和底叮 ( No.15 ) |
日期：2005/02/19 02:35
留言者：kentSifu
電郵：kentSifu@msn.com
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Edward,
I apologize!
He was correct to some extent, but we were both wrong.
I was in a hurry, and did not think much about it when I was typing. Good that he spotted the errors.
In order, the chromatic scale in the major should be:
1----x----2----x----3----4----x----5----x----6----x----7----1
In Cantonese Opera pentatonic scale, we are dealing with:
1----x----2----x----3----x----x----5----x----6----x----x----1
where 1=san(上), 2=che(尺), 3=gung(工),
5=liu(六), 6=wu(五) here,
whereas the hepta-tonic scale is made up of:
1----x----2----x----3------4-------5----x----6-------7------1
where 4=fan(反) and 7=yu(乙) here.
The scales are drawn to the effect that each spacer takes up 20 cents on the tuner. Thus the octave has 1200 cents.
The Root is the Tonic (I=1),
The IIIrd=3 is the Mediant (4 semitones up)
The Vth=5 is the Dominant (another 3 semitones up)
They form the major triad in a major chord in harmony.
The II is the funny one. Since sometimes the music progresses from the I to II, it may be called supertonic, and yet sometimes the music decends from the IV to the II, and it is called submedian. The submedian, and in some scale can be the supertonic, depending on how close they are to the III or I, and in which pregression they are used (as in the different forms of minors).
Check with Woogie-Boogie, I-V-IV-II, ....I-II-IV-V,....etc.
The 4th is the subdominant. Very few people call it the supermedian (even though it is closer to the median) because in harmony, the 4th actually leads into the dominant, and the 7th leads into the tonic. We never call the VI the submedian. If there is a term, it should be more like super-dominant.
In harmony, we give each note a Roman number and also a name.
We make up different modes and scales picking the different notes that rhymes well together.
Depending on whether we have to deal with the augmented or diminiswhed chords, we may call some of the notes in the middle the same names, depending on which direction one comes from. But most of these are seldom used in oriental music except in western jazz or pop music.
Thanks for the correction, and I hope there is no more confusion.
I'll correct them in message 10. And again thanks.
Regards,
--kentSifu
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正 反 線